Vampire Cult Exposed by Journalist Who Took on NXIVM (Part 1)

[00:00:00] Ich heiße Shannon Maldonado und bin die Gründerin von Yaoi, einem Geschenkeladen, der auf Kunstwerke und handgefertigte Objekte spezialisiert ist. Meine Wahl fiel auf Shopify, weil Shopify im Vergleich zu den anderen Plattformen, die ich getestet habe, mit am benutzerfreundlichsten war. Ich habe vor allem an die Zukunft gedacht. Alle Tools, die für die Auswertung von Verkaufszahlen wichtig sind, z.B. von Lagerbeständen, findet man direkt im Dashboard. Starte jetzt deinen kostenlosen Test auf shopify.com.

[00:00:29] Ich werde die, wenn du das. Du hast keine Ahnung. Geh ein tiefes Gehe. Du wirst vergessen. Some voices, you listen to. Some voices, listen back. Für Jahre, Menschen all around the world trusted one online healer, mit der Geld, der Marriere, und der Kinder. Dann, die Court Records kam.

[00:01:00] The Insta-Skammer is a multi-part investigation series by the Cult Vault Podcast. Coming August 31st. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything.

[00:02:04] I'm Sarah Edmondson. Local bookstore or library to order it and encourage them to get on that cult awareness bandwagon. On the show, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive, with honest conversations about how everyday groups can slide into the cultiverse. Each week we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to talk red flags, resilience, and recovery. And yes, we still make time to laugh. Sometimes you have to, or you'll cry. Want early ad-free episodes, live Q&As, and exclusive extras?

[00:02:33] Join us on Patreon at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti. Welcome to Season 9 of A Little Bit Culti. Welcome back to A Little Bit Culti, everyone. Today's guest knows a thing or two about the people behind high control groups. Chet Hardin is an award-winning journalist and the co-author of The Program,

[00:03:01] the memoir about Keith Raniere and The Rise and Fall of NXIVM, written with Raniere's former girlfriend, Toni Natale. In fact, Chet wrote one of the very first exposés on NXIVM back when it was still a little-known group, earning him the dubious honor of being the only journalist to play a midnight game of volleyball with The Vanguard. We'll hear all about that in Episode 1. Now, Chet is back with a new book, The Vampire's Cult, about a very different kind of predator.

[00:03:29] Although, lots of similarities, as you will find out if you listen to the whole episode. Aubrey Trail, an aging conman who presented himself as an all-powerful being. And Bailey Boswell, the woman who called herself his queen. Together, they lured vulnerable young women into a spiral of sex, theft, and psychological manipulation with deadly consequences. In this two-parter, we're exploring the psychology of conman and cults, magical thinking, the need to belong, the template, as we always do,

[00:03:56] and the seduction of dark subject matter, and why, as Chet puts it, everyone is vulnerable when the right conman comes along. Here's part one with a focus on his experience with NXIVM. Part two will cover his new book, and some overlaps. Please join us for both. For now, welcome, Chet Harden.

[00:04:31] Hi, welcome to a little bit culty, Chet Harden. What up, Chet? Hi. Hey, thanks for having me. I feel like this is really wildly full circle, because I don't know if Keith Raniere can listen to podcasts in jail, but I think he would have an absolute shit fit, knowing that we were all talking, don't you think? Oh, yeah. It would be amazing. I want him to be able to hear this conversation. I think he has other problems. I don't know if he's a little bit of a problem. Okay, let's just set the stage here for our audience.

[00:05:01] And I'm just trying to recap. The last couple of years since leaving NXIVM have been a bit fuzzy for me. Have we ever spoken? I know we've been in touch, but have we ever talked? Not at length. You know, we ran into each other, I think, in Brooklyn a couple times. But I know Nippy... We spoke in the overflow room. Yeah. Yep, yep. Nippy and I, we spoke out in the hallway in an overflow room. So, but yeah, not really extensively, no. Because I never went to the trial, so I don't think I met you in person. Oh, geez. She was pregnant.

[00:05:31] She was pregnant. I was pregnant and then I had a newborn. Yeah, then no, we've never met. You might have mixed me up with some of the other thin brunettes that were in NXIVM. It's been so long. But you wouldn't have been thin at that time. I would have been quite pregnant and then nursing. That's why I didn't go to the trial. It's been like, what has it been now? Seven years? It's been a while. Well, almost next year will be our 10th year since we got out. So, nine years. I know, right? It's crazy.

[00:06:01] Oh, man. I know. This has been a journey for all of us. I just think it's amazing because when your article came out in Metroland, what year was that? 2006. 2006. Okay. So, 2006. So, that was like a year after I was involved. And I don't think that you or Tony, Natale, who you guys wrote the program together, would know. She mentioned a couple times in her book, like all the information was there. You know, all the articles were coming out.

[00:06:29] But I don't think that you all knew how much Keith was like creating curriculum to indoctrinate us about the lack of ethics in the media. And, you know, how dishonorable it would be to even read such a thing when there's a smear campaign against the noble man of the world. So, I understand like people looking at the wall. If you Google it in 2006, like it's there. Yeah. But like we weren't even reading it. Like I don't think I even read your article. I never read it.

[00:06:59] I'm not surprised. You know, I'm not surprised that you weren't, you know, he would steer you clear of it. Didn't you, didn't he create, like wasn't there something called the knife? Wasn't that like a... Oh, yeah. Yeah. That came later. That came in like 14. That's what AI is doing now. Yeah. And there are some apps now that do, I think, what the knife was trying to do, which is basically to take data and look at spin and slant and bias. Anyway, let's introduce you a little better. How did you, as a new reporter, I think you were one month into the job, right?

[00:07:29] At Metroland. Yeah. And then somebody calls you and tells you about NXIVM. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Joe O'Hara. I don't know if you ever crossed paths with Joe. Only on the phone. Okay. Yeah. So Joe was, he was kind of like, he did a, he was a high powered attorney in Albany, New York. He got involved in NXIVM as like a cleanup guy, fixer for NXIVM. And then got out. He got freaked out by some of the stuff that was happening and jettisoned.

[00:07:57] And when he did, he brought some documentation along with him. And he called, he just cold called me at Metroland and was like, hey, I got this story. It's about a group. Some people might call it a cult. And man, like, I, I think I was in his office before the phone even hit the receiver. I was just, I was so ready for a story about a cult. And yeah, he introduced me to Tony and he also gave me this dossier that had been prepared

[00:08:26] by Juval Aviv, sort of a guy who runs like an espionage firm. And it was like a dossier prepared about Rick Ross and it had his banking information in it, social security number. So I knew that they, yeah, I knew they were doing something, you know, suspicious. Yeah. Shady. So I call Rick and I'm just like, hey, Rick, you don't know me.

[00:08:52] And you know, Rick, he's such a, like, you know, his guard, his guard is up because, you know, but like I call him, I'm like, hey, Rick, you know, you don't know me, but did you make like an $83 deposit on July 17th? You know? And he's like, how would you know that? You know? Well, actually what he said was, look, oh, let me go get my books. And so like, you know, he turns his way and he gets his books. And then he's like, how do you know that? And I was like, well, I got it all right here.

[00:09:19] And then he just lays out this story of how like he had been brought into Juval Aviv's office and asked everything he knows about NXIVM. At the time he's being, you know, he's in litigation with NXIVM because, you know, they're suing everybody. And so they're basically illegally deposing him, right? Because they bring, so what happens is, according to Rick, Aviv brings him in and says, we have a woman who's in NXIVM and we'd like to get her out.

[00:09:49] So we need you to tell us everything you know about NXIVM, right? And so he does for hours. He just sits in this room and talks to these people thinking that they're trying to get a woman out of NXIVM for hours about what he knows. And then he tells me, Rick tells me that they're going to deprogram this woman, but they want to do it on a boat. And so the plan is for him and Aviv.

[00:10:16] And this woman who I later learn is being, is Kristen Keefe. They're all going to be on a boat together and he's supposed to deprogram her. So for our audience, some of the feedback we've gotten is sometimes we dive right into things that we don't explain the players. Oh, geez. That was a huge amount of information. No, no. Who's Aviv and who's Kristen Keefe? Normally I would let that go. We know, but yeah. And even just Rick Ross is someone we've interviewed. He's a cult expert and helps people get out.

[00:10:45] And then Kristen Keefe, I'll let you set the table for who the players are. Well, yeah. Yeah. Juval Aviv. I don't know much about him. An article came out in The Village Voice a few years later called Secret Agent Schmuck. That's really great. You know, I think there was a time there where Aviv, you could catch him on Fox News. He was considered like an expert on maybe Middle Eastern affairs. So Aviv was this kind of like this shadowy figure to me, right? I didn't really know much about him, but I did know about this dossier.

[00:11:15] And of course I met Kristen Keefe a little while later. And Kristen, well, you guys could talk more about Kristen than I could. I only met her, I met Kristen once. Under what context did you meet her? So let me set up who she is. She had a child with Keith. But that came later. Yeah, but people don't know. I got along with her great. I thought she was funny. I didn't have a whole lot of access to her. She was around for a little bit. And then she was always, air quotes, working on legal.

[00:11:44] You could probably let us know what she was doing when she was doing on legal because I had no idea. And then she disappeared and she, quote, stole Galen, who was, we later found out was Keith's child. And her child. And her child. And they said he was adopted. So anyway, go ahead. But she started as like one of the youngest members of Keith's inner circle, his harem.

[00:12:07] And like from a very young age, I think Pam Kaferitz, either Pam or Karen found her at like a mall selling t-shirts or something like that and pulled her into the fold. So she was one of the three members of Keith's harem before it was like, that was established or before he expanded.

[00:12:52] Yeah.

[00:12:54] And she was one of the most scared of that.

[00:13:24] And she was one of the most scared of NXIV. And she seemed like she was someone you just did not want to cross.

[00:13:54] We're going out in Troy with my friends. It was so weird. I can't remember this. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So. Acapella days? Yeah. This would have been like. Yeah. What, 2008-ish? Yes. Yes. It would have been 2008-ish. And they had just kind of, they just kind of shown up in Troy. Right. And I'm living in Troy at the time. And I'm in like, there's a, there's like a tight knit group in Troy. And. Oh my God. Sorry. Memories are coming back. Yeah. Memories are coming back.

[00:14:21] I think they were like specifically went out to like try to turn you. Right. Well, so I, my friends for sure. Cause they started a little, they started a little like business in Troy where they were trying to recruit from RPI. Troy, New York has a Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is a pretty, it's a pretty well-established college. It has a lot of really smart, gifted students. So that's where Keith. I remember this. Went to school.

[00:14:50] You might not know this, Chet, but I was supposed to be part of that initiative. Oh, seriously? Yeah. Cause it was called 10C. 10C, right. Yeah. Right. And it was Nikki and Allison and I was supposed to be a part of it. And I partly didn't go because like, I wasn't a working actor as they were and they could afford to just like fly back and forth and have two homes. And I was like, I can't afford that. And also I think I was like, this is such a dumb idea.

[00:15:16] There's no way like college students want to introspect and talk about like ethics. No. You know what I mean? I never said that. I never said that out loud, but I remember this being a thing because they were meeting your friends and like, they could like maybe get to you and you were an enemy, but like they could explain to you how great this was. And this is like another angle. Oh man. Yeah. That's wild. I never knew what was going on, obviously with the relationship I had with NXIVM, right?

[00:15:43] I only understood it from my point of view and I knew I was like an enemy, right? I knew I was on the enemy's list or whatever, if they're at the end, in the enemy's box or whatever it was. But anyway, so yeah, we go out to the bar, Daisy Baker's and Allison is there. Nikki is there. All of my friends are there. And Kristen was there drinking a stout. She had two. I know I made note of that because I was like, I didn't, that's interesting. I wouldn't think she'd be allowed to go out and just in a bar and just drink.

[00:16:13] But I made note of that. But yeah, she was there and I introduced myself to her. And when she introduced herself to me, I know I must have like, I have a pretty good poker face, but I must have made it. I must have like, like tightened up or something, but like, oh shit. Yeah. Here's Kristen Keefe, the one and only. She had sniper mode. Did she? She had a sniper mode in her. Yeah. She just was intense. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Frightening.

[00:16:42] It seemed like, but she was nice enough, you know? So, but yeah, so that's how I met Kristen, you know, and I met Nancy and I met, and I met Keith, of course. So all around that same time. I want to hear that story, but first just to wrap up that little, or close that tab in my head. It was, how did Rick figure out that this was a setup with Aviv and the boat plan? From the conversation, from our, from our initial phone call, it all fell into place.

[00:17:07] He immediately realized, wait, this is the guy who's been having me come over to his office and explained NXIVM. So if he's working with NXIVM, then what are they doing? This is some sort of, this is definitely, they're definitely trying to get information out of me in a way that that's probably not permissible by the courts because they are in litigation at the time, NXIVM and Rick are. So he sniffed it out. Well, you sniffed it out. Yeah. You said, yeah, you brought it to him and he said, okay.

[00:17:36] And what I didn't realize until, and by the way, I'm sorry it's taken me so long to read the program. I think I just wasn't ready for the onslaught of information that was in there, but I just read it this week, like Power Reddit after I read your other wonderful, but very disturbing book, which we'll talk about in part two more. I just like, of course I knew about the litigation and there's most of the things I was aware of, but I don't think I really was aware of how much litigation and the level of litigation.

[00:18:04] It was for sure hidden from us because even questions that we had were given pat answers that I, you know, I didn't have enough context to follow up with a pointed question. I was, it was that peripheral to it, but we heard rumblings and Kristen Keefe was always off doing something. And so was Claire. Claire. So you have this exchange with Rick Ross. You've, when does the article come out and did anyone, were you ever sued? Yeah. So, okay. So yeah.

[00:18:34] Yeah. So the art, by times, and actually for a journalist and sort of like a new journalist, you literally could not have asked for a more enjoyable experience, right? Like starting with the phone call from Joe O'Hara and running over to his office. And he's in like this very, like he's downtown Albany. He's right next to the Capitol. I mean, you know, the man's got golden cuff links.

[00:19:02] I mean, it's just like, it's a, I'm all of a sudden I'm in this, like a whole world, right? Like I'm just, I go from reporting about like a, like a church and a bar. The next thing I know I'm in this whole new world. And so it was really interesting. And then he hands me this dossier. It's like, yeah, it's a fascinating thing. So I'm all in at that point. And so he introduces me to Tony, Joe does, and he introduces me to Rick. And that's how the article gets written basically is from Joe, Rick and Tony.

[00:19:31] I make a couple other phone calls. I found, I tracked out a woman from Mexico who had had a nervous breakdown during an intensive. And I talked to her a bit. I talked to a psychiatrist. Loving the podcast. Now you can listen to the book too. A little bit culty, navigating cults control and coercion is now out on Audible. Yes, it is narrated by us. So you get the stories, the hard won wisdom, and even a few tangents that didn't make it into the paperback.

[00:19:58] The book takes what we've learned from our own experience inside NXIVM and from hundreds of conversations with survivors and experts and turns it into a practical, compassionate guide to spotting coercive control, getting out and healing from it. Because culty shit is everywhere and it doesn't always look like people wearing matching robes in the desert. These dynamics show up in relationships, workplaces, wellness communities, churches, social media, anywhere someone claims to have all the answers.

[00:20:24] And we're pretty proud that the book has been endorsed by powerhouses like Leah Remini, Bethany Joy Lenz, Dr. Romney Dervasala, Tia Lovings, Evan Rachel Wood, Jessica Willis Fisher, and so many more. So whether you've been meaning to read the book or you just want to hear us tell it to you ourselves, grab the audiobook on Audible and hit play. And if you love it, leave us a review. It helps more people find the book and maybe recognize the red flags before they're in too deep. Enjoy.

[00:20:57] When we were kids, summer meant total freedom. No homework, no teachers, no alarm clocks, just endless days that felt like yours. As adults, we don't get that back. But Mint Mobile's summer sale is the next best thing. Every single plan is $15 a month right now, even unlimited. Next chance I get to switch my wireless, I'm taking advantage of Mint Mobile's ease, quality of service, and cost savings. Because let's be honest, big wireless has been running the same tired playbook for years.

[00:21:22] Confusing fees, special deals that mysteriously expire, customer service that test your patience. Mint just skipped all that. $15, you get high-speed data, unlimited talk and text, running on the nation's largest 5G network. Bring your current phone, keep your number, pick a 3-, 6-, or 12-month plan, and you're set. Signing up online takes minutes, and you'll get three months off premium wireless for $15 a month. Because grown-up summer freedom is less like endless bike rides and more like escaping a

[00:21:51] wireless bill that made no sense. We'll take it. To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com slash culty. That's mintmobile.com slash culty. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com slash culty. That's it. There's no catch. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Tax and fees extras. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when a network is busy.

[00:22:20] Includes up to 20 gigabyte hotspot. Capable device required. Availability speed and coverage varies. C-Mintmobile.com. You probably think that because we are such awesome podcast hosts that we have our act together in all areas, in all arenas. But no. Nope. We spend an embarrassing amount of time every single week trying to figure out what to feed our family. That's the whole production. That's where Hungry Root has been a genuine game changer for us. The thing I love so much about Hungry Root is that it comes in this big box and you get

[00:22:47] all these snacks, healthy and no weird additives or preservatives. But the best part is that it comes with all the ingredients to throw together a healthy basic meal. Like how many times have you gone to make pasta and realize you don't have sauce or vice versa? So Hungry Root puts together all the ingredients you need for a bunch of meals in the week and it's all done for you. And it has your preferences so it knows what you like. It actually gets smarter the more you use it. It learns your tastes and dietary needs and it just keeps refining what shows up.

[00:23:15] It's like it's slowly becoming psychic about what our household actually wants to eat because I don't like to waste food. With over 50,000 chef-crafted recipes and 1,000 grocery items, we never hit a, oh, we've had this too many times kind of grocery fatigue. Most recipes are ready in 15 minutes, which feels like absolute sorcery on a chaotic weeknight, especially sports nights. And they don't cut corners. Like I mentioned, they screen out over 200 sketchy additives. They have quality meat and seafood with no hormones or antibiotics.

[00:23:44] The standard never slips. So you always know exactly what you're getting. We've outsourced the one part of parenting we're genuinely terrible at. 10 out of 10, highly recommend. You are going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. For a limited time, get 40% off your first order plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to HungryRoot.com slash culty and use code culty. That's HungryRoot.com slash culty. Code culty to get 40% off your first box and a free item of choice for life. Enjoy.

[00:24:12] This message is sponsored by Raycon. It's October and it's officially Raycon month. This brand has wormed its way so deep into my daily routine that it felt only right to give it a whole spotlight month. A very small, ear-sized holiday, if you will. My go-to is Raycon's everyday earbud classic. Music while I'm pretending to be productive, a podcast on the go, whatever the moment demands. I use the earbuds all the time. As you probably know, I'm always listening to a podcast or listening to someone's memoir to prep for the next podcast.

[00:24:42] I'm just using them every day. They are so comfortable and the sound quality is amazing. And the active noise cancellation is a superpower for blocking out distractions. Whether I'm tackling my massive to-do list or just need the world to be quiet for 20 minutes, that happens regularly. They sound amazing. They fit great. And at this point, we're in a pretty committed relationship. So what sealed the deal? Well, a couple things.

[00:25:05] Up to 32 hours of battery life with a case and the quick charge, which is turning 10 minutes of charging into 90 minutes of playtime. That's better math than I do in my taxes. Multipoint connectivity lets you pair two devices at once. And the ergonomic design actually stays put, unlike any other pair of earbuds that I've owned that pop out at a moment's notice. And how many pairs of those have I lost? The new colors are great, too. I went with Cool Mint because apparently I make purchasing decisions based on ice cream flavors now. Who wouldn't?

[00:25:55] I was peripheral to that. Nippy was there for the woman. Oh, for real? Well, when did it happen? It happened 2003-ish? Yeah, that sounds about right. So this was like right before I left and just decided, hey, good for you guys. I like what you're doing here. I'm not going to be a trainer. I'm not going to be. But it wasn't like weird yet. And it wasn't like, I was like, you're a group in Albany, New York.

[00:26:25] And you have some classes I took. And I was like, fine. And Lauren was like, well, you should come. I'm like, Lauren, if I want to take another training, I'll come back. And I remember, this was back when you would staff a training for free. And you would do free labor to staff a training and see the curriculum for a second time. I think it was around the time I was like taking staffing like my second 16 day. And I got to tell you, I just didn't have the stamina for it. So I'd always find reasons to get out. You would always get in trouble for that too.

[00:26:54] Well, I mean, I've got about a three to four. I got about a three to four hour spurt. And then I need a break. And then like, I can't. And something was going on and happened at volleyball where Keith had made a pass at this girl. But I didn't know this till years later. Apparently they said it was the curriculum and shoot. And some people have a hard time looking at themselves. And the parents came up. And Nancy said, you need to go to the airport. And I was looking for a way to get out of the intensive. I was like, I'll take them.

[00:27:21] So I took her car and took the parents to the airport. And I understood that the brother still stuck around and finished the 16 day. So I didn't think anything was wrong. I thought his sister had a nervous breakdown. Because of the people. That's the narrative. That was the official explanation. Because she couldn't handle it. Because she couldn't handle it. She saw some things. Yeah. But really it was because Keith was inappropriate. I later found out. Right.

[00:27:51] Wow. That's interesting. Yeah. There will be so many things. What I'm getting and what you're getting. You're getting the truth. I'm getting the cover up. Yeah. Well, yeah. Actually, but also the truth. I'm hearing this for the first time. This is amazing. I had no idea. There were a number of things. I've made notes in reading the book that I was like, you know, just seeing the truth side of it in real time. And thinking about what we were told instead of like putting things together. Yeah.

[00:28:20] And hearing Tony and you guys take on what really happened. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of infuriating. I mean, there's two things that go on. I'm infuriated that this was covered up. And then I had that low level, like kind of like embarrassment that I didn't ask more questions and was so naive. And didn't read the papers. Didn't read the articles. I mean, I can. But I totally see that. I totally see where you guys are coming from. And I always wondered. And I always wondered. I always want. Like, I actually.

[00:28:47] To get back to Nikki and Allison a little bit. You know, I actually met with Nikki in a coffee shop. In Troy. I remember this. And I thought stupidly that I was going to be able to talk some sense into her. Right. Because she was. I think she'd even gone out on a date with one of my friends. I can't remember if it was an actual date or if it was just, you know, a dinner or something. It was more of a recruitment, probably. Recruiting. Yeah. I met with her.

[00:29:14] And the entire time we're at this coffee shop at Daily Grind, she's getting texts, you know, like just nonstop texts. As I'm talking to her, I don't know what I think I'm doing, you know, but I'm trying to like say, have you ever read anything I've written? Have you read any of my articles? Anything like that. And it just, it was never going to work. It was never going to work. I was never going to get through that barrier because she's probably getting texts from probably Nancy or someone, right? Or Keith, yeah. Or Keith, yeah.

[00:29:42] So, yeah. How am I going to break through that? You know, it's funny because we've run into these kinds of things a lot. In a lot of ways, you don't necessarily know what you're looking at because the investment into what she's defending goes back to, I'm going to give up a career. I'm going to move my life to Albany and blah, blah, blah. I've done all these things to invest into this belief. A coffee shop or a bar conversation isn't going to make her go, you know what? He's right. I'm going to go back to my, you know what I mean?

[00:30:11] So, there's this inertia of things that you don't even know that you're looking at when you're asking questions that are all buy-in and investments into what she's doing. So, even if you do make sense to her, and you could with Nikki because Nikki's smart and she's practical. She's just going to find some way to wiggle out of it because she's already made the investment. Yeah, her sunk cost fallacy. Her sunk costs were so, I mean, I don't know what you could have asked her to break the spell at that point.

[00:30:40] By the way, I'm so glad that she is out. You know that she's out now, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The last time I heard her really defending Keith was on that Scott Adams show. Yeah. And then, yeah. He's out soon after. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Yeah. I love that. I love that sort of like perspective that you just gave though about the sunk cost because I don't think people understand that when they're dealing with someone who's in like an abusive relationship, like a cult.

[00:31:08] I don't think they understand just how much it takes or how much you've already given to this. Right. And to just walk away from that is just, it's so. You can take the behavior off like a cult thing because we had an experience here in Atlanta where we saw a relationship, peripheral relationship, but it was pretty clear that there was some stuff going on. And we knew that the woman was kind of in a difficult situation.

[00:31:35] But also I understand completely why she didn't want to blow up her family, four kids. And eventually it ran its course and whatever has to happen for those things, I think you have to recognize that the investment is never going to manifest. And it's at the expense of your own happiness and your own well-being. Until you're able to reconcile that, staying is easier.

[00:31:59] I definitely got that sense also reading the book, like perhaps that's why we were able to, you know, be whistleblowers when we were because we didn't. And yes, I was invested. And yes, I had, you know, I had made next thing in my life in many ways, but I never fully gave up my life in Vancouver. Like I never moved to Albany. You know what I mean? So I had something to go to. And then a lot of people that stayed so long didn't have anywhere else to go.

[00:32:25] Also, you know, Chet, you could probably, you've investigated two people like this who don't have the aesthetic acumen or appeal that manipulators have. So it kind of actually fortifies the narrative that it's not about charm and looks per se. It's about what's done emotionally. A lot of the women around Keith were incentivized to protect him because they were emotionally invested.

[00:32:53] Similarly with, you know, the vampire cult, which we'll get to in our second episode. So it's hard to know that when you're sitting with someone, that's all they've got. That's what you're talking to. Speaking of lack of aesthetics, what was it like when you first met Keith? Keith. I mean, he had been built up in my mind so much that I don't know. It was such a, it was such a surreal meeting, right?

[00:33:18] You know, out in the middle of the country at that sports barn where they played volleyball. Is it ABC Sports? Was that what it was? Yeah, it was. Yeah. Or the sports barn. No, ABC was the one in sports barn. It was out in the country. It was in the middle of nowhere. No, Dooling Banjos. It was the middle of fucking nowhere. I remember pulling up and being like, where am I? But it was right down the street from Clifton. It was right down the street from Knoxville.

[00:33:47] If you're ever going to feel like you're in a cult, like pulling up to that place was like, oh my God, where am I? Especially when it was winter. Getting up and like, oh man. Anyway, so tell us what it was like. Yeah. So it was absolutely surreal because, you know, I pull up and there's a bunch of cars in the parking lot. But, you know, I talked to Tony right before I went. Tony was like on pens and needles. She was a nervous wreck. My wife was nervous about it.

[00:34:16] You know, I get there around midnight. And yeah, the lot is full of cars. And I go in and it's, I don't know. It's like I'm starting, I'm seeing these who's who of these characters. And they're characters to me, right? Right. You know, I see a few Mexican dudes. I have no idea who they are. You know, I see a bunch of like, I see a few people I don't really know who they are. I see one of the Bronfman sisters.

[00:34:45] I see Allison. She's there. And then, and Keith is there and he's playing with, and you're going to have to help me remember this guy's name, James. Jim Del Negro? Yeah. He's playing with Del Negro. Yeah, so Del Negro and Keith are playing together and then everyone else is playing against them. Right. And so I walk in. So I'm just watching this volleyball game at first.

[00:35:10] And I think I'm standing right next to, you know, Claire and just kind of watching this volleyball game happen. And Keith is the first one to kind of really notice me. And he, it stops the game, just kind of walks out of the game, walks over and introduces himself. And it's, you know, I mean, he's shorter and I expected and he's, but not really, because I've already been prepared for him physically.

[00:35:34] Like his, like, I, you know, I've been prepped by Tony, but, you know, he's, I was intimidated, but also at the same time as a journalist, I'm like on this rush. Right. So like, I'm actually kind of having fun, like with this, like, I'm not, you know, maybe I should have been scared, but I wasn't at all. And I don't think I should have been, you know, knowing now what I know about, you know, that situation, I should, there was nothing to be scared of physically. Correct. But like, it was, well.

[00:36:04] Well, I just question, why did he invite you? Like, what was the premise? Like, just to see, so you could see for yourself, this was his way of making a comment, like, come see what we do. Like, what was the. Yeah, no, he, he was, Maxi was suing my newspaper for $68 million, $80 million, something where in the range of that. Yeah. They were suing over an article I'd written where I quoted Rick.

[00:36:27] Like, one quote that I pulled out, I used of Rick's talking about consumers byline being a Ponzi scheme. And so they sued the paper for tens of millions of dollars. Well, they'd filed the lawsuit, but they hadn't acted on it yet. Right. So Keith was like, basically, he emailed me and he said, you know, we don't have to move forward with this lawsuit. Why don't you come over, meet us, talk to us?

[00:36:56] The Dalai Lama. I was calling the Dalai Lama's people and causing such problems for Keith. Like, I had written an article about the Dalai Lama coming to Albany and the Dalai Lama pulled back and said, I'm not coming after my article. Because I was calling his people and saying, you know that this guy is a cult leader, right? And the Dalai Lama is just going to be adding, like, credence to what is a dangerous organization.

[00:37:25] And I don't understand why y'all are doing this. And so they backed out. So I was causing problems for Keith. And so between the Dalai Lama, my sort of being an irritant there, and then this quote from Rick, that's why they filed the suit. So Keith invites me to play volleyball. I don't really understand why yet. We play for a couple hours. I'm terrible. I'm a terrible volleyball player. But I played on his side. So it was me, Jim, and Keith.

[00:37:55] Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And we started losing. Because every time the ball would come at me, I'd just be like, I don't know what to do with this thing, right? So, like, I'm terrible at volleyball. Allison actually made fun of me at one point. She's like, is this reminding you of high school, Chet? Because I was so bad at it. But anyway, it was just catty. Anyway, so, yeah. So Keith pulls me aside after two hours of playing.

[00:38:16] And he says, you know, if you will stop reporting about the Dalai Lama, you can have an exclusive one-on-one interview with me. I'll bring you in. I'll bring you in. I'll introduce you to everybody. I'll introduce you to the curriculum. I'll show you everything. And you can have an exclusive one-on-one interview. So that was the pitch. And what did you say? I just kept writing about the Dalai Lama.

[00:38:45] Because I just didn't think it was – well, I just felt like I wasn't going to negotiate with him. Yeah. Smart. He also probably thought that knowing him and his grandiosity that he could turn you. In a certain way. You aren't susceptible in that way. And I'd like to note, too, inviting you there, getting you comfortable, having you play with him for two hours is kind of the test of what you're willing to endure and soften you to his deal. And at that point, the deal is probably, what, at two in the morning? Yep.

[00:39:15] Yeah. It's two in the morning, which is an unusual time for me to be playing volleyball. Never done that. Yeah. Clear your name without me having to go do Stop My Job. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like ridiculous ask. It is ridiculous. And also just indicative of how he really did try to get people's guards down. You look at what he did with the women over time. It's not just sleep deprived and being available to him to play volleyball. If people are staying up until two or three in the morning, they're not going to sleep until four or five, right?

[00:39:45] No, you're circadian rhythm. You're fucked. Never mind their diets, which you talk about in the book, and is known now for all the – I don't know if you know that we call our audience NXIVN nerds. So, you know, this wasn't my first interaction with Keith or the leadership at NXIVN. Like, I met Nancy right after my 2006 article came out. We met at a coffee shop. It was a strange – that was a more intimidating meeting for me, at least, than meeting – She's going to be scary.

[00:40:15] She has a – she's got a vibe. Like, Keith just kind of just – like, Keith is like – I don't know. There's like – there's something odd about Keith. Like, it doesn't – I didn't – there was nothing connecting me with him at all. He's a hobbit. He's a hobbit, and there's no – like, I just felt no emotion about him. But when I met Nancy, I was intimidated by her. What was it like? And that whole meeting – Oh, it was so weird. It was like we were going to meet at a coffee shop, and I'm sure you guys know the coffee shop.

[00:40:45] It had like a – Professor Javis. Yeah, like a – yeah. Professor Javis, right. Yeah, it's a sanctuary. It's a sanctuary. It was the sanctuary. It's a sanctuary. It's not a coffee shop. It's a sanctuary. The same furniture it's had since the mid-60s. Yeah. I mean, it's a cool place. I liked it. Is that where you met her? I liked it. Yeah, that's exactly where we met. Yeah. And she told me to meet her there, and so I did. And I'm sitting at the bar or the counter waiting.

[00:41:10] And I wait for like 20 minutes, and I'm like, where is this woman? Like, this is – Unprofessional? And then she emerges from the back room, and she's like, oh, yeah, I'm back here. This is where I've been waiting. So I go back into the back room, and she positions me so I'm sitting kind of with my back to the room, and she's kind of facing me, and it's – I'm very intimidated. And she starts in on her sales pitch, basically, which is that – Yeah. She's like, I thought the article was really well written.

[00:41:40] She goes, you're a very good writer, but you're not a great writer. She's like, I could help you become a great writer. Oh, my God. And immediately that pissed me off. Because it was just like, I don't – you know, just don't – that is not how you – that's not how you get me – win me over. That's not why I'm sitting here right now. Yeah. I'm not here to become a great writer through you, Nancy. And then she offers me a job.

[00:42:07] She told me she'd pay me three times what I was making at Metroland, which was – Yeah, a huge amount of money for me, right? I was like, you know, newly married and stuff. And I was like, wow, that's quite the offer to be your publicist or whatever she wanted me to be. But I turned that down as well. So I think when Keith offered me the one-on-one exclusive interview, I'd already been – I'd already had something dangled in front of me by NXIVM.

[00:42:36] And I just didn't believe it then. And yeah, she was very weird. I think maybe she did NLP on me or something. Yeah, yeah. Like, I – there are parts of that conversation I just don't remember. Oh, she is probably doing all her tricks. Yeah. She's still – she's still doing it. I don't know if you've been paying attention. Yeah, I heard. Yeah. I can't believe that, actually. I can. What else is she going to do? Well, I just can't believe she'd be allowed to. I feel like there should be some – Oh, allowed to. Yeah. Yeah. Like, no more NLP for you.

[00:43:04] Like, I just feel like she – you know, but – yeah. Sidebar, did you listen to the NLP series that Alice Hines did? Uh-uh, no. It came out last spring, maybe? Yeah. Check it out. I think it's called Mind Games with Alice Hines and other co-hosts. And she interviews Nancy. Oh. She interviews myself. And she – and there's – I think you'll find it fucking fascinating, giving all the reporting you've done on these two people, especially Keith going back to being – not

[00:43:32] being totally aware of the level of litigation that they were willing to do. And one of the things I didn't know, and Nippy said he already knew this, I didn't know that Kristen Keefe had an internship at the district attorney's office and had access to files. Yeah. That's wild. It's crazy, right? And that was around the time that Joe got indicted or charged. And I forget the charge, but it was one count he was charged on by the DA's office.

[00:44:00] And I think she was in the DA's office at that time. So I always wanted to know what was going on inside that DA's office. Want in on the good stuff? Subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com slash a littlebitculti for bonus episodes, early access, ad-free listening, and the warm feeling of knowing you're supporting independent podcasting. Truly could not do this without the patrons. No robes required.

[00:44:34] Nippy and I are so thrilled that Wayfair is our sponsor. We've used Wayfair to literally fix up every home in our house. We just finished finessing Ace's bedroom, which was really sad. We hadn't done anything for him since we moved here when he was three and he's now seven. So he needed a new big boy bed. We got him some nice sheets. And now I'm focused on the foyer. I got the most beautiful two-drawer wood console table in Walnut. It's called the Guinna. And it's got little drawers because I needed a place for like keys and sunglasses and the

[00:45:03] basket underneath for like last minute grab and goes. Game changer. Thank you so much, Wayfair. You really have changed our lives. If you have not become a Wayfair devotee as we are, let me tell you a few things. Wayfair verified products are hand vetted by specialists using a 10-point inspection so you know its quality before it ships. Thousands of products across every style and budget, whether you're replacing one appliance or going full holiday transformation, Wayfair has got you.

[00:45:29] Plus 20 million verified five-star reviews and real customer photos so you can shop with confidence. I always look at the reviews and the photos. That tells you what you need to know. Find pieces made for real life and even get more value with Wayfair Rewards. Join Wayfair Rewards today to get 5% back on every purchase. Head to Wayfair.com to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Happy shopping! Wayfair. Every style. Every home.

[00:45:56] You know those pieces in your closet you reach for constantly while everything else just sits there judging you silently? The sweater that works with everything? The jeans that always fit right? The bag that becomes a permanent limb? Those pieces earn tenure in your wardrobe. That's the whole Quintz philosophy. They specialize in elevated essentials like organic cotton and premium stretched denim. Timeless stuff. Thoughtfully made. Designed to be worn constantly instead of once for a photo and then abandoned forever. They're 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. My favorite.

[00:46:23] Start at $50, giving you that I clearly have my life together softness without requiring you to have your finances together. And as it gets colder, they've got you covered. Responsibly sourced down jackets, cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, plus gorgeous 14K jewelry that's the, oh, I just threw this thing on finishing touch that Sarah always does. And recently, Sarah took it upon herself to get me some new shorts that are a little bit snug on my bucktocks, but she loves it. Everything's 50% to 80% less than comparable brands because they

[00:46:53] cut out the middleman entirely. And it's not just clothes. They've brought the same good stuff, reasonable price energy to bedding, kitchen essentials and furniture. Well-made things for grownup living. You don't need more stuff. You just need stuff that doesn't fall apart after two washes. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for at Quintz. Download the Quintz app for app exclusive offers or go to Quintz.com. Get free shipping on your order. 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too.

[00:47:19] And when Quintz asks where you heard about them, let them know it was a little bit culty. It's the best way to support the show. Hello, friends. If you don't know me by now, you'll never, ever know me. Whether it's racking up credit card points or collecting and using affiliate codes, you should know by now. I'm always looking for a good deal. It's a personality trait at this point. And that's also why we have sponsors on this podcast. So we're basically professionals at finding good deals. Which brings me to what not.

[00:47:46] The number one live shopping app in the US. Think of it as a shopping channel, except it's real people, real conversations and deals that make your wallet do a little happy dance. You almost never pay full price. Makeup, perfume, clothes, handbags, jewelry, all name brands without the retail sticker shock. It's the best place I know to find great stuff you actually love. And here's the fun part. That blazer you swore you'd wear again. The handbag that's been judging you from the closet shelf. All of your children's Pokemon that they're totally not playing with anymore.

[00:48:15] What not makes it easy to turn it into cash. Connect with shoppers who share your style or your interests and go live while you're at it. I might need to start a new little side hustle. I'm looking forward to doing more shopping and selling on what not and supporting everyday people like me. Download what not today and get $20 off your first purchase. Search what not W-H-A-T-N-O-T in the app store. Sign up and start finding the best deals on the products you love with $20 off your first purchase. Terms apply.

[00:48:46] All right, everybody. That little break is over. Let's get back to our story. Have you ever like are you still writing about this stuff? Because I feel like someone needs to do an expose on the corruption in that district. Like how did all this how how did the whistleblowers how did Tony Natale Joe hair and who is the third person the the last indictment? Oh, are you talking about the computer trespassing? Yeah, the John. Oh, John Teague. John Teague. Yeah. John Teague.

[00:49:16] I'm confused. Where are we? So I don't think you got to that part in the book. It was like the last thing that the thing that they actually arrested Tony Natale on or it was the computer trespassing. And they like took her basically Joe hair went to the DA's office with all this evidence. And then he's the one who got charged him and Tony Natale and John Teague got charged. That was the member.

[00:49:39] We were I remember hearing about that when we were in that they found whatever they found like one piece of pornographic evidence on John's computer or something. Yeah, they found. And yeah, he got so they got they all three got arrested on computer trespass because they logged into the NXIVM server. Oh, that's right. That's yeah. Using a password that they were given. Right. And so they all three got charged on that. Joe went to prison for something else entirely.

[00:50:08] John Teague went to prison for child pornography, possession of child pornography. And Tony didn't. Tony got out of it. She never got, you know, prosecuted or, you know, sentenced or anything like that. So she got out of it. But yeah, the other two, they went to prison for other reasons other than that. But I think the legal troubles started. Obviously, John Teague's computers were seized. That's how they found the child pornography. So seized because of the criminal, the computer trespass.

[00:50:37] But yeah, that all happened. When was that? 2013, 2012, 2013. This is all stuff. I don't know. Yeah, and this would have been so far out of what you were like. You guys probably wouldn't have heard about any of this stuff, right? I remember hearing that John was going to jail for child pornography. And that was like a big win in the community. Yeah, you guys. Did you know his name in the community? Yeah. John Teague's name? Because he was coming up to V-Week and like taking pictures. Right.

[00:51:07] Yeah. We were like, who is this guy? And he's, you know, and everyone's just enemies. Like all our enemies, right? We didn't know too much about them. Yeah. But just putting these pieces together and I just feel like there's something that needs to be exposed about like whose wheels were being greased in the, you know, like, was it because Kristen was at the DA's office? And I just don't really understand. I think. Like how all these, how they were able to operate in the district for so long without being.

[00:51:36] Lying the same way they operated with us. They lie. They don't say what their real intent is. They're not transparent. I just feel like there's more. I feel like there's more. I think there's a little bit more money. I also think too, this is kind of where I've landed on this. There's a lot of incompetence in government and they don't necessarily probably would vet someone like that or in an office. And maybe this was like her third attempt to do something and she got in. And like Kristen was pretty effective at that. Like there's a reason Keith picked her to go do that stuff. She can present as competent.

[00:52:06] Yeah. So, you know, who knows? Like there's a lot of variables as to why people do a lot of things. One of the things that I think we've always kind of said in our podcast is it's very hard for good people to project malevolent intent into people. So most of the time you accept people for face value until you have reason not to. Yeah. And they're good at that. Like he did it for 20 plus years. I still think he should write an article. Yeah. I definitely think there's much more. Yeah.

[00:52:33] Especially because like later when the New York Times article came out and how quickly Moira, Penza and like, you know, the feds acted. That was a different district, right? Yeah. Is it the case? Albany is in the Northern District and they're in the Eastern District. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. So they couldn't even, they didn't even, yeah, they didn't get charged in the district for their operating for decades. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like there's something rotten in the Northern District for sure. There's some, there's something that I remember when I first joined and I remember, yeah, I

[00:53:02] remember, you know, as you know, I was an acolyte and I loved the curriculum, but I was like, where, what dingy ass, what is this center? Like, can we upgrade a little bit? And I remember somebody, and I think it was Pam, showed me plans for like the center that they wanted to build. Yeah. And how it got shut down by city council or something. Like they weren't allowed to build, like they weren't given the permits because, you know, the community thought they were a cult.

[00:53:30] So like they did hit up against some things, but obviously zoning, zoning, zoning. I don't know, just a little speaking of that funny. Got by zoning. Yeah. Got by zoning. Funny story that I think you'll appreciate. After we left and we were trying to do whatever we could to like give them fires to put out, we, we called the half, I can't remember who we called the half moon city council or whatever to tell them that, cause they, we knew that they had a coach summit going on

[00:53:58] there and they were way over capacity. We wanted them to get, we wanted them to get in trouble. Like somebody knocked on the door and be like, excuse me, how many people are at this converted? Like they were breaking zoning laws every time we had a gathering there for sure. Hilarious. Oh, that's funny. Nobody checked on them. I don't think, but we were doing, we're doing whatever we could to try to, you know, cause shit. But anyway, back to you. Yeah. That's hilarious. Okay. So you've written the, you write this book, you write the program, you attended the whole trial.

[00:54:28] Any thoughts about that? Like what was it like to be in the trial and like how, how much was your mind blown hearing from the testimony from people that you've been following for so long? Constantly. I mean, it was such an amazing experience to sit in that trial and hear because I'm just talking to you guys right now. And like, I, I would have, I, there was a version of me, you know, 20 years ago who would literally have killed to sat down and heard some of these stories. Right.

[00:54:57] I was so fascinated and I wanted to know what was happening on the inside so badly. So to be at that trial and to hear the testimony was just, it was, I felt, it felt like a complete full circle for me. I, like all of these questions I'd had for so long were getting answered. Keith's sort of like how despicable Keith is and how dangerous Keith is.

[00:55:24] Because I was getting, like, it was, I was finding out, you know, like, so yeah, right. It must have been, it's amazing, it's amazing to have that aired out. You know, I always thought that they had broken into my apartment and I always thought they broke into my bank account when I was living in Colorado. And, you know, for, for the prosecution to pull out a file that has my name in it and

[00:55:47] to see that I'm on a list of people that Keith wants to be investigated by a, like a private investigator and to be asked about my, to be asked by the FBI information about my banking. Right. Like all of this stuff really, it really satisfied this sort of like, like I, I wasn't crazy. Right. I, there was no part of me that was insane anymore. Like I, I wasn't making a, I wasn't making a big deal out of this. Like it all was true.

[00:56:14] So yeah, it was very satisfying to, to hear it. Yeah. Totally relate to that. I mean, I think I said this to Josh Block when we did the escaping Nixie and for CBC, that even as I was coming forward and telling him all these things, I would still be like, cause I was gaslit for so long. And as I'm sure, you know, you were in your own way, but I remember saying to Josh, like, this is bad, right? Like this is like the brand. And he's like, yeah, Sarah, this is bad. I mean, if you guys all consensually decide to put this guy's initials on you, then like,

[00:56:44] that's one thing, but you were tricked and you didn't know. And it's not consensual and it's a lie and it is bad, but I still had to like, I was still wrapping my head around it. So to feel the relief of like, I mean, for us, it's like, it's so much worse even than we thought. Like when we were initial whistleblowers, we knew we were blowing the whistle and what we knew there was more. I didn't know to the vow. Yeah. I actually saw footage of him treating people in a way that I'd never, I'm like, what the? Oh my God. Yeah. So anyway. What was it like to see him in sitting in prison?

[00:57:12] Like, what did he give you the dirty, dirty looks like he did to Tony? No, he didn't give me a dirty look. One thing you said was so interesting to me. And I don't think people pick up on this type of thing that like the executive success, you just kind of said it and like, you know, it's, you know, it's kind of a joke, right? The executive success has this dingy offices or whatever. And like when there are things aren't meshing, when the message isn't matching or like matching the aesthetic or all the way through, right? When there's like, when they're like, that's a warning sign to people, right? Yeah.

[00:57:42] It's not consistent. Yeah. If there's not a consistency there, there's probably an issue. And like that struck me about NXIVM too. Like when I saw the offices, I was like, wait, this is the thing I've been scared of all this time is in this office, you know? So, um, yeah. Well, you touch on my initial reason to leave is I didn't see anyone in the organization, particularly killing it in their own lives. And I was supposed to take advice and I was 26, 27.

[00:58:10] Like I wasn't like, there wasn't anyone, like when I was playing sports, I would go, oh, there's a guy who can shoot or throw it better than me. I'm going to go see what they're doing. There wasn't really one in the organization that felt like they were doing anything at a level that I wanted to emulate. So I was like, until I see that. And then I left because I knew they weren't there. And there was for me because Lauren and Nancy were helping people in a way that I wanted to emulate. Like I thought they were so good with the tech.

[00:58:40] I was like, oh my God, I want to be like them. I want to be that. I want to sit down with somebody and like ninja them out of an issue they're struggling with. And I had a taste of that early on. And like, it was very compelling for me. That part of it was. Well, since you said you would have killed for an interview, is there anything that you want to ask us before we switch gears? I just want to know, like, well, I've gotten a sense of the whole why my article or why

[00:59:05] any reporting at all, like the Times Union article made no impact. Did it feel like everyone involved? Did it feel like a place of work? Did it feel like a family? Did it feel like what was the vibe you had with the other people who were in it? For me, it changed. Different for both of us. Yeah, we were different with this for sure. And it also changed over time.

[00:59:33] Like at the beginning, it was, you know, a tool set that was going to help me with my life. And I found like I had this like key to success. And actually, Nipri and I were just talking about this the other day, how neither of us were raised particularly religious. And we didn't have that background. And I know for me, having like a rule book for, you know, a set of guidelines structure for how to live was very appealing. And that's not something I've really dug into too much. There's other reasons like community.

[01:00:03] I really wanted community and have thrived on that at different times in my life as a camp counselor, living in Israel on a kibbutz. Like I've, I love that sort of communal, like we're a group and looking for that sense of belonging in the group was very appealing to me. And then it morphed into like, as you know, Barbara Boucher was like, wow, you're, you've referred a lot of people, you know, that you can earn money doing this and this could be a career for you. That came secondary. And then, you know, they EM'd any feelings they had about feeling uncomfortable about, you

[01:00:33] know, preaching to my friends until it came very naturally. But what always came naturally and how I referred people initially was like, I love sharing what I love and I still do. You know, I just joined a Pilates studio. I'm telling all my friends, like, it's just what I do. That's why I was a good recruiter. But so like, then it was my career. And then as it became more my career at acting became less my career than it was more, it just, you know, kind of became my life and my, my everything except for.

[01:01:00] But it began as you had that sense of community. And like, I love, I like that rule book concept. That's fascinating. It is nice to have rules. Yeah. It is nice to have rules. Yeah. I'm a rule follower to a degree, but also like I had a hard time making decisions. That was one of the reasons I joined is I was, I was sort of fascinated and have to ask a million people. And now I had like a way of going like, well, if you know what your values hierarchy is,

[01:01:30] which you do in the first five day and you're choosing between two things, you just have to like, you just look at your list. What's the most important thing? That's the thing you choose. And there's going to be a downside because you don't get to do the other thing, but you feel good about that. So I was like propelled forward in my life and my success in a way that I had never had before. And that was because I had this like set of guidelines, which it wouldn't, they wouldn't necessarily call it rules. It would have just been like a way to live. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Nippy's different. That's interesting. Yeah. What about you? Ask the question again.

[01:02:00] Yeah. I just wanted, did it feel more like a place of work? Did it feel like a, like a family? What did it feel like? Well, similar to Sarah's, it morphed because when I first decided to do the training, it was more to be close to my former girlfriend. And what do I get out of this? I'm paying you money for a product. I want the product. So I'm relating to the organization is what are you giving me to help me in my life? Cause that's how it was sold.

[01:02:29] So the transition of going into a world where now I'm working for the organization for free was something I did a couple of intensives for and go, this isn't a sustainable model for me. And I signed up for you to help me with my goals. Now I'm working for you. So I peaced out then when Mark came in 2006 out of LA and offered me a role. So it's similar to, do you want to come work for me? I'll triple your salary. I was out auditioning and working.

[01:02:56] And then he came and offered me a film role, which brought me back to Albany. So it was still, I always related to the company. It was like, okay, now you're delivering on some of the things that I want. I have work here. This seems like a place I can jibe with because I'm getting my goals met. Eventually the film didn't happen. And then I was pissed and there was some transition. We don't have to get into all that stuff, but ultimately it morphed into, okay, I found my place in this organization. I run the goals labs. I like it. It's a job. It's a kind of like a company.

[01:03:25] And it's, and I actually met with some friends of mine that I went to college with some really good friends of mine. And they were like, yeah, when I checked in on you, you were always, working for this group, going off and doing these trainings. And it seemed like, yeah, you had a pretty cool life of, you get to go meet. And it was, that's what I thought I was doing with bad pay, but still it was not what I signed up for and not, I was helping the company. The company wasn't helping me. And the original exchange that I agreed to is you're going to help me become successful

[01:03:54] in the things that I want in my life. And slowly it formed and it morphed into that. You became. Well, a lot of coercion had to happen for me to become an employee, so to speak. Working towards their goals. Yes. Yes. And still a foot in my life and a foot out of it, still pursuing my stuff. But if you want to be successful in anything, you have to edit your life in a way that the thing that you're trying to become successful in is how you spend most of your time. And I had a foot in NXIVM. I had a foot in pursuing my acting career.

[01:04:24] That just doesn't work if you want to be successful. Yeah. At least for me. I'm not competent enough to grow a cult and an acting career at the same time. You know, and the things that I had been successful in, I'd edit my life accordingly. I had a regimen and I had a routine and it produced results. And this, so I always had a relationship with the organization. It's like, you're not delivering for me and what I signed up for. And that was used against me as you're attached to your results. You might want to work that.

[01:04:52] And so I'm not wired to not want my results. So my wiring, I had to sit on in the name of the court. And it wasn't a sustainable model for me. Regardless of what happened here, I was never in a homeostasis with the organization and or most of the people. Like they weren't, it wasn't my tribe. There was like three or four people that I was close with, everyone else. I mean, I was nice to and civil and know how to behave and get along with, but they weren't people I otherwise would have pursued. Sure.

[01:05:22] You know, so I always had that relationship with the organization. It's an interesting relationship. I like the fact that they like were smart enough to like not fight you on having one foot in acting and one foot in because it's that it allows you not to like completely. Correct. And Chet, I think they knew that about me because I had left. And when I returned to the organization, it was explicit and clear. I was there to work on a film and I had my boundaries in place.

[01:05:51] My boundaries were, you know, I'm not going to live up near you guys. I didn't pursue a relationship with Keith similar to you. I didn't feel. So there was a lot of things that I already had, maybe not language for it, but definitely had my arm's length. And I'm going to relate to the organization in this way. And that was pretty much how it worked. And the through line here with all of us is we all got dangled. You know, it didn't work for you, Chet. It worked for us. Yeah, you resisted. Yeah. You were like, yeah, no, I don't want that.

[01:06:20] Well, they tried to find your areas to self-ability. That was the requisite variety. They probably went back and had conversations. And Keith was probably listening information from people, not knowing that he was trying to elicit that. But what do you think he wants? That was it. I was about to say that. And someone said, he wants a career. And well, let's offer him, you know, whatever. And then that makes you obedient. That's fascinating. I promise you those conversations happened. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thought. It's an interesting thought to think that those conversations were happening.

[01:06:48] But, you know, I was, you know, I was like, they couldn't have got, there was nothing they could have offered me, not because I like am impervious to cults. I think actually it's the opposite. I'm pretty susceptible to like coercion and like, you know, everyone is in a certain. Right. Yeah. So like, there's nothing. I had a suit of armor on already because of my job. Right. So like, there was not, there was literally nothing they could have done at that point other than like a gun to the head to make me like, you know, stop.

[01:07:18] And that might be a good place for us to pause and dangle the hook for part two, which is that we all have our, you know, our susceptibility. We all have our hooks. I mean, you know, you, you couldn't get hooked into this, but you have susceptibility to other things. And we're going to talk about in part two, give our audience a little teaser of just like a, you know, so they come back and listen on Thursday. Who's Aubrey Trail? And what, how did he hook women into his cult? What was, what did he dangle? Yeah. Yeah.

[01:07:47] Well, Aubrey Trail is a, Aubrey Trail, when I started reporting on him or I first heard about him was this 52, 53 year old felon who had started a small little, small cult in Wilbur, Nebraska. And he claimed, you know, like Keith, he claimed to have these sort of like, like powers. Right. And like one of the, you know, one of, one of Aubrey's powers was that he was a vampire,

[01:08:16] that he was a thousand years old, that he could, you know, there were others anyway. So he presented himself as a vampire and he dangled a young woman named Bailey Boswell in front of these susceptible young women. And that's how he kind of started his cult. Okay. So we're going to get into the, all the details to that in part two. Fair to say though, that he doesn't present, he doesn't bring up the vampire stuff right away. Right. Like he, it seemed. He doesn't lead with that.

[01:08:46] He doesn't lead with that. It seemed to me that he hooked, he hooked Bailey initially by helping her get out of a jam because of her abusive baby daddy. So he, what he's dangling is security, safety, financial safety, you know, like as a lot of traffic, a way out. So let's get into all the details on that in part two. So everybody come back on Thursday and we'll be talking with Chad Harden again, this time about the vampires called and all the through lines that he has learned about with cores

[01:09:13] of control and con men, schlubby con men and specifics. And we'll see you then. See you Thursday.

[01:11:01] If you're finding this podcast helpful, please do us a solid. Drop a rating, leave a review and hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling extra culty, join our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit culty for early ad free episodes and all the bonus content. Even better pass this episode along to someone who might need it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit suggestible or maybe they just can't resist a good cult story.

[01:11:28] Oh, if you want the full download of everything we've learned over eight seasons, grab our new book, a little bit culty. It's out now on Amazon, Audible and anywhere you can get books. By the way, we narrated the Audible. It's super fun. Your local bookstore or library can order it too. Share the love and spread the culty wisdom. Thanks for listening and catch you next time on season nine. A Little Bit Culty is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound.

[01:11:57] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy and our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsmore. Writing and admin by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Skrasinski and Brooke Keen. Our theme song Cultivated is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.