Season 9 Opener: A Little Bit Culty Vancouver book launch & live Q&A (Part 2)

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[00:02:00] This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, or mental health advice. The views and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the podcast and are not intended to malign any religion, group, club, organization, business, individual, anyone, or anything. I'm Sarah Edmondson. And I'm Nippy Ames.

[00:02:30] And this is A Little Bit Culty, the podcast where we unpack cults, control, and coercion. We woke up from a cult. The whole wild ride ended up in The Vow on HBO and in my memoir, Scarred. Now after eight seasons of hearing every kind of culty story imaginable, we've bottled up everything we've learned into a book, also called A Little Bit Kulti. It's available now in all formats on Amazon, Audible, and where fine books are sold. Or get a signed personalized copy on our website.

[00:02:56] Better yet, ask your local bookstore or library to order it and encourage them to get on that cult awareness bandwagon. On the show, we break down the shame and secrets that make these experiences so destructive with honest conversations about how everyday groups can slide into the cultiverse. Each week, we bring in experts, survivors, and whistleblowers to talk red flags, resilience, and recovery. And yes, we still make time to laugh. Sometimes you have to, or you'll cry.

[00:03:21] Want early ad-free episodes, live Q&As, and exclusive extras? Join us on Patreon at patreon.com slash alittlebitkulti. Welcome to Season 9 of A Little Bit Kulti. We can dive to the depths of the ocean.

[00:03:47] Hello, everybody. Welcome back to part two of our Live in Vancouver book launch and Q&A with family, friends, and fans. This is diving right back into the Q&A, so if you missed part one, you may want to do that first, and then come back and join us here. Enjoy.

[00:04:19] I remember a couple of years ago, I tried to reach out to warn you about somebody that I once looked up to, an author, a podcaster. I won't say the name, but yeah, somebody I had complete trust in and admired and whatever. Fast forward a couple of years, and I think this person is very dangerous and causing a lot of problems. Anyway, my last interaction with this person was reminding them that they had admitted that they had fallen for three different cults.

[00:04:49] And that I said, perhaps maybe you shouldn't be so certain about what you're saying now. And I wish I'd heard what you guys just said earlier. I might not have used this approach. But essentially it was, do you know how hurtful that is to me? I was like, oh, but it's also true. So I guess that's sort of the question is, do you see a pattern in people who are more susceptible to alt dynamics and maybe gaps in critical thinking? Or I don't want to answer my question.

[00:05:19] The question is that what are the signs of people who are easy marks or whatever for this stuff? Yeah. First thing first. Yes. Case by case. That's important because there's certainly patterns, but it's definitely case by case. When I think about that person who shall remain nameless, I feel like, and I'm going to answer that for them and then paint a bigger picture. I think that they enjoy the smell. This is Nippy's line. The smell of their own farts. In other words, they're righteous. I believe that there's a certain, specifically with cult hopping, like people who go from thing to thing.

[00:05:48] And this is a chapter in the book. We call it the cult shaped hole in your heart. And I sure had one when I left. I had a whole big hole. But if somebody, if the right kind of person had invited me to something else, I mean, listen, I was allergic. No, I wasn't. Yeah. I was super allergic, but I was also very lonesome in that way for the community and the things that we left. I think that's, I think that's a really. You spent a lot of time building it. Yeah. So that's different. I did. I did. But I think with that person, like, you know, you're looking, people are looking for answers. You're looking for community.

[00:06:18] And then top it off with a little need to be right about something with that person. And that's what I mean by fart sniffer. Like, it's just a righteousness. I definitely enjoyed being right and feeling good about finding my brothers laughing in the back. And still do perhaps enjoy being just a little bit, you know, above the things that I like, you know. That, I think, is a personality type. And then to want to. Is that? You're awfully kind to yourself. Oh, yeah. What would you call it?

[00:06:48] Joy. Joy. Just a pure joy to be around. I do think that, like, it's really case by case. And it's something that we try to lay out in the book. It's like, what's your own hook? And my hook at the time that I got hooked in was very specifically community purpose, you know, wanting to feel like I was part of something meaningful. And, you know, giving me the tools to success that I thought that I needed. And I think that was my hook. Nippy's hook was very different. And I. Drastically different. Drastically different.

[00:07:18] Who hasn't read the book yet? Okay, great. So one of the things we laid out is, like, and how we do the structure of it with everything we talk about. So, like, why do people join cults? They get hooked. My hook, I just said what it was. Nippy's hook, read the book. And then, like, a couple specific. How are you? Yeah, but I know we can. But, like, we break it down to how did, you know, we look at different guests. So every guest highlights a different thing that we talk about. And every guest gets its own little paragraph. And we show how different the hook can be.

[00:07:47] And it can be, you know, anything from utopia to financial freedom to, you know, joy. This is called the science of joy. Different phases of their life of feeling low self-esteem, high self-esteem. You get out. Some people, there's. Life is going to hit you at some point. Right. And it's going to cause you to self-reflect. And if you had met Sarah and I during that point, I'd have been like, hey, we got some great tools for you to self-reflect and evolve that. And we were right. That's the thing. We did.

[00:08:16] You would come and take a five-day. I had two friends. One of them took it, did a five-day, and hugged me crying. Said he was thinking of suicide. I had no idea. Another one had just gotten out of divorce. They didn't continue. But they got what they needed, felt better, and moved on with their life. I'm actually still proud of that. Like, I don't have a problem. Now, I wasn't trying to get them to join a cult. I just said, hey, you might want to try this. It helped me here. So. Yeah, Megan.

[00:08:40] I really like these questions where we're talking about, like, because I think as humans, we want to learn, like, could I possibly have become part of a cult? Or, like, what are some of the behaviors that I exhibit that might make me vulnerable to being in a cult? And so we look inward at ourselves. But as I was telling our 19-year-old that I was coming today, and she's like, do you think it's not about the people? She's like, do you think that the, like, was the cult always planning on being a cult?

[00:09:09] Or did it start as something and then become something else? And so instead of looking a little bit more externally now and more of, like, less about are we vulnerable as people and more to sometimes, does something accidentally become a cult? Yeah. And it runs away from us. What do you think about that? I'm going to answer this. One of the things I say is kind of like one of our taglines is the coercive patterns that are the behaviors that—what's the line? I don't know what it is.

[00:09:38] The abuses of power that go on in cults aren't proprietary to cults. It can happen on a lesser level, like with coercion and abuse. And you can kind of be in a cult, just cult-like, and you don't even know it. You could have come across it, left it, looked back, and not even known that you were involved with something. And I guarantee you most people have had an experience like that. So it's not so much it goes full-blown cult.

[00:10:02] You were involved with someone where someone was gaslighting you, love-bombing you, trying to manipulate you, coerce you in some sort of abusive power way. You didn't even know it. You didn't even think it was going on, and then you look back because you have more awareness or something bad happened, and you go, oh, I wasn't in a cult, but they did behave like that. Which happened to us a lot after the vow. People reached out from around the world, still do, saying thank you for giving me the language— Putting language to it. —to what happened.

[00:10:28] And to answer the second part of your question, Megan, we have found lots of groups that started with great intentions, wonderful intentions, little utopian communities, little, you know, communes of hippies trying to live a better life, and then one person—you know, humans are humans. So the dynamics can shift when one person gets into power and ruins everything, for example. I mean, lots of things like that can happen. We do believe in our case that Keith turned bad. No, I think—

[00:10:55] Or like he was a sociopath at the age of 12 or whatever and figured out that he could manipulate people. And got good at doing that. Same way someone goes, I'm going to be a great hockey player, they put Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky on their wall. He found he was good at something and went down that path. But— The other thing to that point— Oh, sorry, can I just finish that one thought before? No, you may not. You're right, right. No, well, just that there are people like Keith who plan it, and then there's people—

[00:11:19] there's lots of people that have just like the narcissism of their own followers fuels their demise. And it gets worse. What I was going to say on the heels of that, this is somewhat dark. I think what allows these people to get away with what they get away with is because they are proactively looking for areas of vulnerability in the human condition because they've studied it, know what it looks like. And sometimes you don't have a chance, right? If you meet them and they're committed and they find that area of you and they know how to elicit it, they know how to look for it.

[00:11:49] They can even probably tell when you walk in the room, that's a target. They target you and you don't have a chance unless you move or something like that. And that's how these people work. And they're out there. And if they can get themselves inside a system where they can cheat their way to the top and they're in a position of power, authority, admiration, whatever hat would have you, then a lot of the people underneath them that are bought into them are in trouble in some shape or form. And when that bomb or that shrapnel goes off, you know, we got skimmed by it.

[00:12:17] But people that were next to Keith and in his immediate circle have lifelong damage. It's undeniable. And that's their advantage. They know what it's like to be you. They understand your psychology. They've studied it. You're none the wiser because you find yourself in a position of being at the end of someone who's put themselves out as someone who's benevolent and you don't know that they have that bad intent. And they're out there. And you might know some.

[00:12:46] Quick, shameless plug for our book because there's a very exciting update. The audiobook is officially out and it's narrated by us. So you can now read the book however you like. Hardcover, ebook, or listen to us tell you the whole damn story ourselves. And if you've been listening to the podcast thinking, I know this story, what else is there to learn? We think you might be surprised because the book does something different. It pulls everything we've learned together into one place. Not just what happened, but the patterns underneath it. The red flags we missed.

[00:13:16] And what we understand now. And what we hope you can take from our experiences and actually use it in your own life. And if you're more of a just give me the goods person, we've got you there too. There are simple takeaways and checklists throughout so you can skim, highlight, dog ear, or come back to the parts that matter most. It's the story, yes, but it's also the, okay, what do we do with everything we've learned book? And how do we use this information to protect us in the future? And now you can hear it in our actual voices, which feels like the perfect way to experience it.

[00:13:46] A Little Bit Culty Navigating, Cults Control and Coercion is available now in hardcover, ebook, and audiobook, wherever you get your books. And if you've already picked it up, first of all, thank you. Second, if you enjoyed it, please take a minute to leave us a review. Reviews make a huge difference in helping new readers find the book. And we do read them, all of them. Then pass that hard copy along, give it to a friend, leave it on someone's nightstand. Maybe give it to someone who might be in a cult, you never know. And save the audiobook for your next long drive.

[00:14:16] Gardening marathon, dog walk, closet purge, or whatever activity makes you think, you know what could really improve this? A few hours of cult education. However you read it or listen or pass it along, we are so grateful you're part of this conversation. Enjoy. Remember when summer actually meant freedom?

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[00:19:03] Thanks to Raycon for sponsoring. Thank you for listening. Now, let's dive back into the cultiverse. Kevin, thanks for coming two times in the last week. First off, I'm sorry for the time and energy you had to invest in making this adjustment, but I'm grateful that you did. Thank you. Probably AC here too. AC here. Yes.

[00:19:32] And not there. Absolutely. It's lovely. Sorry if this question is too personal. I think you've been very personal throughout your podcast. But you're in the unique position of having met in a cult. And I'm kind of piggybacking on what Nippy just said a little while ago, but you're playing a character of yourself while you're in the cult. So I'm just, I'm curious.

[00:19:54] Did you fall in love with each other's character or did you see through the character and connect that way and draw ourselves to each other? Did you kind of save each other? I thought it was so cute. You're right. No, I'm just kidding. You have a good answer. What? You are. Yeah. Well, you know, I have a good answer for it. Only you tell me what it is and then I'll confirm it. Well, I think there was a little bit of both, actually.

[00:20:23] You know, we both, I do think that Nippy was more his authentic self. I for sure was. I was like, I would go to sleep on your table. I didn't give it. Yeah. That's why he didn't get promoted to the next stash. I was getting what I was getting. But like underneath it, I was still a bad girl. I was a bad girl. No. I just said that. Delete that, Will. Delete that. But I actually was. I didn't really realize it till later. Like it was a persona.

[00:20:53] And even towards the end, if you've read Scarred as well, you'll know that like I was doing all the things I was supposed to do. I said I was doing all the things, but I had started to not and to lie and to like inside. I was like, this is bullshit. So like when the when that mask was down. Outside, I was like, this is bullshit. Yeah. Nippy was outwardly like that internally. And so I think we did. I was able. I was. I think one of the reasons why I survived in the way that we did personally is that I had Nippy to talk to. And like I could complain to him and he wasn't going to go tell on me. Yeah.

[00:21:23] We complained to Mark. We all had grievances around the organization. It wasn't hunky dory. It was a shit show. Like. It really was. And we. In addition to the good stuff. Yeah. We were constantly trying to like battle things with the organization outside of it. We're like, what's going on here? When is this going to. When is this going to be? The well old machine that, you know. And time's ticking. We're burning daylight. You know. And we got stuff to do. You know. And so. We used no website. We was always disgruntled. But to your question. I think we weren't in Albany.

[00:21:50] So like I never felt the pressure to behave. Like I was always going to be me. And I didn't really have the energy. I was too lazy to be like. But you also had certain values. Like we had. Yeah. We did have values. And one of the things that I say that I learned in NXIVM that I still agree with is that a good relationship is a match of values. And our values were our values. And we met there. And we loved each other's values. Go ahead. What we signed up for. Growth. Push yourself.

[00:22:20] Be successful. All those things. We had in common. Right? We still have in common. We're still doing it. So. Here we are. And that never changed. Yeah. That never changed. And I. And it got tested. So I got to see how she was. So I got to see. Like a lot of people flex a persona. But you don't. You know. Very few. When you make friends. You don't necessarily know. You assume that they're going to have a character. You assume that when you go into an alley. And you get jumped. They're going to stay there and have your back and not run.

[00:22:49] Very seldom is it tested. Right? You don't know. You don't really know someone's character until it's tested. It's tested. Hers is tested right in front of me. And I got to see it. And it was confirmed. That was the answer I was thinking of. Yeah. Thank you. Love you. So thanks for doing a. Ask me anything. This is great. Yeah. The other night at Banyan. We were talking about Scarred. We were talking about the day you got out. The day you blew. Got out of there. And I think you tell the story in Scarred about.

[00:23:18] I think it was being on Amtrak to Detroit. To Toronto. Toronto. Yeah. From Albany to Toronto. Nine hours with a three-year-old. Now you were. You. You had a plan. And you executed it. What would you say to somebody who's in a. Very controlling cult. And there are a few. That are quite popular right now. Yeah. Like how to get out. That. Like what steps should they take. How. If. When they're ready to go. Like. How controlled do they need to be of themselves. And then how much planning do they need to take.

[00:23:48] And what steps do they need to take. And who should they reach out to. Great question. And that's why we wrote the chapter. What to do when it's time to GTFO. And it is like Nippy said earlier. It's case by case. But. Oh. But like depends how immersed you are. Like do you live on the compound. You know. Like are you escaping an island. Or in a foreign country. Or are you just like leaving an online book club. That's become coercive. Like there's different things you need to do. But then everything in between. And in that chapter we really break down like your security. And your livelihood.

[00:24:17] And like you know for some people they have to leave everything. And learn how to use a debit card. And like they don't have any of that. And everyone they've ever done business with is in their community. That's a whole different thing. So we try to break down it into categories. But I think it's laid out very specifically in the book. And there's also the section before is when the shelf breaks. Like what causes the shelf to break. And has anyone not heard that metaphor? I feel like most people. Uncle John you don't listen to the podcast. I don't think. I'm calling you out. No I'm just kidding.

[00:24:47] I don't expect you to. I don't expect my family to listen to the podcast. Why would you? Yes. I'm going to. I'll explain it for those who've never heard it. So there's a metaphor in the cult space. That like you have a shelf. A metaphorical shelf. A shelf in your head. And when something happens in your life. And I'll use a different example. Let's say domestic violence. Because it's if you've never experienced a cult. Well use our example. Sure. Okay. Back to our example. I'll use both examples at the same time. The first time the guy says something kind of mean. You're like did he just say that? No he's a good guy.

[00:25:16] I'll put it on the shelf. In the cult. Did he just ask him to wear a sash? That's a bit strange. Oh there's a reason. I'll put it on the shelf. So all the things that happen. The moments. The interactions. Those little feelings. Those little things that give you the icky feeling. And you're not totally sure what it is. And you can't name it. You put it on the shelf. Our shelf was front loaded a little bit. Yeah. It was real heavy 12 years later. And you know the final thing that happens. Is the thing that breaks the shelf. And it's very different for everybody. Obviously. And actually for those who know. Like the details of my story.

[00:25:46] It wasn't actually getting branded. That broke my shelf. That. I was still high on the adrenaline. On that for a while. It was finding out that it was Keith's initials. In the symbol for the elements. And also that he was. That. That sex was involved. That some people were having sex with him. And that put it all together for me. And that broke my shelf. But other people have shelf breaking moments. From the littlest little things. Why were we talking about shelf breaking? We were asked about. What.

[00:26:15] How did I get out? What you decide is that it's happening? Yeah. So sometimes. Thank you so much Megan. You sometimes you. Your shelf breaks. And it's not time to get out. Because you need to gather evidence. You need to make sure you're safe. You need to find a place to live. Depending on how involved you are. So it's really case by case. And we. You have family members. Yeah. Like. Yeah. Some people can't leave. Because they're leaving family members. There was a lot. There were people that left with us. And I knew that they were out. But they stayed. And they stayed in the community. Because they were waiting to get paid. They had.

[00:26:44] Found me that they were trying to extract. So they couldn't become an enemy like I was. They saw what happened to me. And they're like. Oh no. We're going to stay. And like. What the fuck are you doing? Come with me. And they're like. No. We're happy. But then I found out later. That they had to like. Take a bit more time. You know. So. Yeah. Does that answer the question? Yes. The only other person I know named Troy. Auntie. Sorry. Oh sorry. This woman's been. Okay. Thank you Megan. We'll come to you. Thank you very much for this. And I just wanted to ask the question around. What was the time that you realized.

[00:27:13] Because control is obviously a big part of cult. What was the pivotal time that you realized. Something really didn't sit well with you. Oof. I mean. The things not sitting well with me. Were from the beginning. Oh. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. But not that bad. Just little things. Like I said. The shelf. But I was. I knew I couldn't get my money back. I trusted the person who told me. That things were going to get better. And they did. But there were so many weird things from the beginning. I just didn't know what I was looking at.

[00:27:43] All of those things together. Started to accumulate. Like the shelf just kept getting heavier and heavier. There were other things. Like in the years leading up to me leaving. Us leaving. Where like you know. A couple people died. Suspiciously. And it was from very advanced cancers. And at the time I thought it was. Something in the water. But I believe that Keith poisoned them. Actually. And poisoned the women around him. That he was trying to get rid of. To make room for the younger newer batch. Of women. But yeah. No.

[00:28:14] Finding out the truth about who he was. The final thing. But yeah. Yeah. But there were so many other things. That were just gnawing at me. That I knew it was time. Thank you for coming. Hey Tracy. Sarah. So when you had your space in Vancouver. And you would do presentation night. Kind of like this. Yeah. A bit like this. Yeah. And I brought two of my friends. And then we went for coffee afterwards.

[00:28:43] And you know. We sat down. And then my friend Nick goes. Well that's a cult. And I said no. It's not. It's you know. Anyway. My question might not be answerable. But I'm just wondering. If there are certain traits in people. Who are able to not be. Indoctrinated. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. There's not that. Even with people like that though. I will say.

[00:29:13] That they may have seen that our thing was a cult. But could also be. Because this has happened a lot. Where people say. They came to an info night or whatever. And they were like. Oh I saw that a mile away. And then they tell me about something they're involved in. And I'm like. But you do that. You know. So it doesn't. They might see this. Very obviously. And that does happen. But I do think that people who've had certain experiences. Like where they grew up. Yeah. They have wisdom. I want to share something. Can I. Can I. With what you told me.

[00:29:42] Like 12 or 13. 20 years ago. Yes. Okay. Candace was a dear acting. Is a dear acting friend of mine. But at the time. I tried to recruit her. Like I did all my friends. And she came. And I think even met Nancy. Indigenous. And like. Yeah. And she was like. As soon as she heard about the Sashes. She was like. I grew up. And these are my words. As I remember them from 20 years ago. In you know. Apartheid South Africa. And like the hierarchy. And the ranking. And I was like. I totally understand why you think that's that. But that's not what it is.

[00:30:11] But Candace saw it like a mile away. Because of her experience. Does that seem accurate? Am I saying that right? My mother. You're yours and your mother's. Yes. So her. So she was able to sniff it out. Because she had the. Background. I didn't have that background. Like my experience of cults was like shaving heads. Goat bloods. People in robes. Like eyes wide shut. Like all. That's what I thought a cult looked like. I didn't know what I know now. If I knew what I knew now. I never would have signed up. Let alone gone. I would have been like. Oh you're pressuring me. Like.

[00:30:40] Back off. All that said. I do think people have areas of susceptibility. And if you're the kind of person who says. Oh I don't have that area of susceptibility. You just advertise and broadcast your area of susceptibility. Because if I'm a malevolent person. I go. Oh this person's prideful. Or whatever. I can just stroke their pride. And that. Then now I'm in. Right. So. And you fortify a blind spot. When you do that. So. I didn't think I was the kind of person that would fall for this.

[00:31:11] But I also didn't think my high school girlfriend. Who I was still in love with. Would get me to come take her training. That's based on goals. Right. And I was like. Oh. Come check it out. I'll go do your cult. I actually said that. And. We actually had somebody on the podcast. And I'm going to say his name. Because he was on the podcast. And he may or may not have family in the room. His name's Ian. And he was XJW. Jehovah's Witness.

[00:31:39] And he was a voiceover actor here in Vancouver. And I tried to recruit him. Or somebody else tried to recruit him. But I did the sales pitch. And he was like. Yeah. I grew up Jehovah's Witness. And like. No. And I was like. Oh. No. You're just like. Projecting your bad cult experience. Onto what we're doing. This is not that at all. And we laughed about that. When he came on the podcast. Because it was very similar. As we found out. But. You know. Live and learn. I have a pre-question. That follows up. Her question.

[00:32:09] And that. Is when you said that. Keith. You thought. Keith may be poisoned. Some of the people that are dying of cancer. Did you mean. Real poison. Or psychologically poisoned. Of. Well. But I mean. That's not my question. That's my pre-question. Okay. So let me answer that question first. So there was a time when. Give the actual forensics that we know about. Yeah. First I thought it was. Psychological poison. Like just tormenting. Like if you watch The Vow. Keith tormented these women. Gaslit them. And just. Terrible things happened to these women.

[00:32:38] Then later we found out from somebody who left. That she had said something. She was in love with him. And was part of the harem. And she'd said that she felt uncomfortable. With all these women. Dying. His friends. These are people he'd been with since they were teenagers. And he said. I think that they're being poisoned. And it wouldn't be hard to poison somebody. Through the water. So. We think that he. That was his admittance. To her. Oftentimes he sees people tell you what they're doing. Why they're doing it. Yes.

[00:33:08] And she was upset about being. Having to share him. Because she loved him. And didn't want to be part of a harem. And he said. Don't worry. There's going to be a changing of the guard soon. So. Those are the two. You had the evidence. That's our evidence. Well. And also. But it's. You know. Third hand. Yeah. Yeah. So here's my real question. That wasn't really my question. Hair was tested. Oh yeah. The hair. Yeah. That's public knowledge. Yeah. And there was a documentary. Yeah. The documentary made about the hair being tested. She had really long hair. And they tested it. And there was bromine in it. I think.

[00:33:38] Rat poison. And she had cancer too. She had cancer too. And overcame it. So did Nancy. And so did Nancy. There were nine cases of cancer. In the women around him. Wow. Yeah. And three or four of them died. So you had good reason. Yeah. But the question. Yeah. The question I had is. People study people in the penal system. Who have committed rape. And they have identified. There's certain characteristics. They look for. Before they choose their victim. So what I'm wondering is. In the situation where someone's running a cult.

[00:34:08] And the people that work with them. And they're looking for their new victims. What are the characteristics they're looking for. When they look for their next victims. I can't. Like I mean. I'll tell you for me. When I was recruiting for NXIVM. I wasn't looking for. People like. Vulnerable people. That's sort of the stereotype. I was looking for bright lights. I was looking for people. Who are producers. Who are creating shit in the world. Who are wanting to be a part of team humanity. I know that sounds really naive now. But that's what I was looking for. I would say that somebody like Keith. Was looking for.

[00:34:39] People that he could get close to. And manipulate. And there were certain patterns of behavior. And that's also. Also the women. What? And the types of women. The types of women. Yeah. And we talk about actually attachment theory. And different types of attachment theory. And how certain people with certain types of attachment styles. Gravitate towards people like Keith. And what they can offer. In terms of connection. And safety. And being seen. In a way they may not have gotten from their parents.

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[00:37:55] Download the Quintz app for an app exclusive offers or go to quints.com slash culty. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's quince.com slash culty. Break time's over. Let's get back to the show. I have two questions. One is after you got your, you were branded, you didn't tell Nippy, you told Mark, right?

[00:38:24] Was that it? And I just wondered if you could comment about that. And then lastly, this is kind of a jovial one for Nippy. Nippy, I just wonder, what's your perception of Canadians? That's all I want. Yeah, I was scared shitless because I had collateral. I'd given collateral. And I don't know what the long-term plan was really because obviously Nippy would have seen it eventually. For those who don't know the order of events, really quickly, I was derailing. I was like, I have to get out of this. I was trying to figure out how to blow it up. Didn't know how.

[00:38:54] I was so scared. Then Mark Vicente, my business partner, said that he was leaving NXIVM. And he had his own thing going on because Bonnie, his wife, had left. And I felt I wanted to know why. So he made me sign an NDA. And under the NDA, I somehow felt safe to tell him. But it was after he shared with me what he knew but why he was leaving, which was that there was this secret women's group and that the women were being tasked to have sex with Keith.

[00:39:22] So I already knew that I was out. I knew I had to get out. And because he'd shared that with me, I felt safe to tell him. And we hatched a plan that he would tell Nippy because then somehow I wouldn't be breaking my vow of secrecy and my collateral wouldn't be released. It made no sense. But it was me just trying to, like, figure out how to let him know without getting in trouble. Like, it made no sense. But that's why I told Mark first and Nippy responded appropriately. And we were out. And then we went to the FBI. And that was it.

[00:39:53] And we wanted to skip a few, talk to the FBI. We went to the FBI like three days after Nippy found out. It was that quick. Day after my birthday. Yeah. It was very fast. We moved fast. Like, we woke up very quickly. Yeah. And for anybody who has seen the vow and for those of you who've read the book, I do have to say that I am seeing you evolve over the last many years and all of the acquisition of information and conversations that you have.

[00:40:19] You two are very disarming in your, like, you present as is. You are the same as we've had in private phone calls as you are in this room. And I think that's probably why so many people are charmed and friendly and comfortable to speak to you because you really make everybody at ease and you are who you say you are. And as you are in the book and there is. And for those of you, when you read the book, what you'll notice.

[00:40:46] And it's something that I mean, we've spent hours and hours together in the last few years talking through what the plans will be for your what you're going to include in the book and how it's going to be released. And I said to these guys earlier today, one of the things that I still, well, I feel like I know them as many of you do. There is a piece in the book where there is a both an admission of shame and embarrassment that can come with their experience and that looks different on each person.

[00:41:15] And just the fact that you guys are so vulnerable in this room and that you're so vulnerable in the pages that are a bestselling book now that, you know, live in homes and libraries beyond that. Homes you'll never go to this book lives in. And that admission is such a huge indicator of who you are as people. And I hope you give yourself credit for that because you spend a lot of time shedding spotlight on other people and helping other people.

[00:41:42] But I hope you give yourselves a lot of credit for the light that you are yourselves. And in order because people have to like see the light to be able to experience it for themselves. And on that note, my last question for you today is for anybody who might have that little feeling inside of them listening either in the room today or on the podcast.

[00:42:09] For anyone who might be just questioning something, and that may be cultish like behavior out in the world that they're encountering or it might be something in a family dynamic. If somebody in the room were to have something that is embarrassing them or that they feel shame about that they haven't, that that's preventing them from moving forward. What advice would you give them? Barry Meyer, who is the journalist who broke the story in the New York Times, said sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[00:42:38] And I really agree with that. And that's certainly been our experience. And our motto from the beginning has been to blow the shame, blow the lid off the shame and the stigma around these things. I think that's largely why we were able to do what we did is in the wake of Me Too, where it was like, OK, and shifting off the victim blame that had always occurred with situations like this. And it still does, but it's less so now.

[00:43:01] And I'm very grateful for that, because I don't think that we would have been able to do what we did without that being in that wake. So and also, OK, one more thing is just to say thank you, Megan. I don't know if we said it properly at the beginning. Megan and the self-publishing agency is the reason why we have this book. And one of the reasons why it's super important to mention is because while I had a great experience publishing traditionally with Scarred, I didn't have a lot of things in my control.

[00:43:29] And I didn't realize that would be so hard as a cult survivor to not choose what was on the cover, to not choose to have the final say in the edit. And that's something that Megan pitched us. And I'm so grateful because there were so many things that I know a publisher would have said. In fact, people said, yeah, you need to make this into two books or those there's appendixes at the end that are very niche. How to write a cult memoir. Very niche. Right. How to whistleblow. I know most of the people in this room are not going to read those sections, but it's OK. The book is meant to skip around.

[00:43:59] And what I wanted and what Megan gave us permission to do is write the book that we wanted to write. Right. And so that when somebody came to us who just got out of a cult, fresh out of a cult or their loved ones in a cult or they're just curious, I can give everything that we've learned up until now in one book. And there's no like things they need to download off the Internet or something like everything's there. And I'm very proud of that. And no way a regular publisher would have let us do that because there's a lot in there. And thank you, Megan, for guiding us, keeping us on track.

[00:44:27] This book will probably be about five years out without Megan. So thank you to Megan. Thank you, Zach. And also this time last year, for those who know us, we came back last time. We were almost done. We were like, we're done. And then we found Melody, who was in the audience. And Melody looked at us. She said, you're not done. You're not quite done. And it was Melody. What's that? She edited this book. Yes. Yeah. We actually had two editors. Melody was our main structural editor. Shelley Snowperdea was our first, but I was almost like a writing coach editor.

[00:44:56] And then Shelley came in once it was done and restructured it. It was Shelley's idea to do. To do the culty cheat sheet. If you see every chapter as a cheat sheet, which I think is really helpful. That's Melody's idea. She was an incredible resource to us. And listen, I could go on a huge tribute list of everybody who's helped make this book. I know we can't do that. And it's in the acknowledgements. So please do read the acknowledgements.

[00:45:21] But I will say, obviously, my mom and dad, who not only were so supportive this whole time, what we were in, when we got out, but also to make tonight happen. We couldn't have done it. To bring the food, to bring the drinks, to show up. And Cecilia and Sandra. And I know I'm forgetting somebody. It's why I don't do this because I'm going to forget somebody. But you know who you are because you like we wouldn't have been able to do that. Oh, this place. Oh, my God. You think I'm a person. No, but I have to say this on the podcast.

[00:45:46] So Eric Lee and this space, which is called CoFunction, jumped in at the last minute to give us this space. And we wouldn't, I don't know what we'd be doing. Probably doing this in my mom's living room. Outdoors. Or outdoors somewhere. Kids Beach. Where we used to play volleyball back in cult days. So this space is beautiful. It's brand new. It's rentable for those emerging art authors who are going to have their book launches. Please come. Please use this space for the venue. He did not charge us for this. It gave it to us as a gift. And that was a real gift.

[00:46:16] He saved this space. Thank you, Eric. Thank you, Eric Lee and the CoFunction space. So it's not for Sarah Nippy to tell you to go and buy another copy of their book. That's my job. And the reason is so at the self-publishing agency, we have, I've made it our company's goal. And my personal mission this year is that just to gift more books.

[00:46:45] Gift more stories. Gift more education. Gift more things that entertain people or that spark ideas. So for those of you in the room today, I know with your ticket, it comes with a book. And I know some of you might have bought it. But I do really encourage you. It's not just supporting Sarah Nip. These guys don't need your support. They got it by you showing up today.

[00:47:07] But when I think about what you could do for other people when you leave this room as part of the energetic send into the world and the contribution to people's thinking, consider buying another copy just to gift to somebody. And you know what? If they're not in a cult or they're not questioning anything, give it to them for entertainment. Because quite frankly, it's very entertaining. I think it's funny. The examples are phenomenal in this book. The language, the vocabulary that you introduce to people about cult-like behavior.

[00:47:37] It's fantastic. So let's wrap up on our very special Vancouver Summer Bonus episode. We want to say a huge thank you again to everyone who came out to our launch, brought your questions, bought books, waited patiently in line, and generally made the whole night so much fun. It was such a joy to eat so many of you in person and to see our family and friends. And to reiterate our special thanks to Eric Lee at Co-Function Events and Workspace for hosting us. Check him out for his new business out there, which is going to be awesome.

[00:48:03] Great views right across the street from some great venues to hang out afterwards. He saved us. And to Jennifer Lee Gunson for recording this episode for us. We're grateful for everyone who came out and rallied around us. And to everyone listening, thank you for being a part of this weird, wonderful, slightly cult-y, not tupercult-y, just, you know, it's a community. We are so excited to be launching season nine. And until next week, stay curious, dress your gut.

[00:48:31] Maybe don't join any groups that require you to surrender your credit card, your boundaries, or your personality. Do not do that. All the best. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

[00:48:59] If you're finding this podcast helpful, please do us a solid. Drop a rating, leave a review, and hit subscribe on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling extra cult-y, join our Patreon at patreon.com slash a little bit cult-y for early, ad-free episodes, and all the bonus content. Even better, pass this episode along to someone who might need it. Maybe they're in a cult. Maybe they're just a little bit suggestible. Or maybe they just can't resist a good cult story.

[00:49:26] Oh, if you want the full download of everything we've learned over eight seasons, grab our new book, A Little Bit Cult-y. It's out now on Amazon, Audible, and anywhere you can get books. By the way, we narrated the Audible. It's super fun. Your local bookstore or library can order it, too. Share the love and spread the cult-y wisdom. Thanks for listening, and catch you next time on season nine. A Little Bit Cult-y is a Trace 120 production. Executive produced by Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames in collaboration with producer Will Rutherford at Citizens of Sound.

[00:49:54] Our co-creator is Jess Temple-Tardy, and our production coordinator is Leslie Dinsmore. Writing and admin by Sandra Nomoto and social media marketing by Eric Skrasinski and Brooke Keen. Our theme song, Cultivated, is by the artists John Bryant and Nigel Aslan.